Episode
25: White Noise, MLS, and marmot w/ Jeff G
- Podcast
- No Solutions
- Published
- May 30, 2026
- Duration seconds
- 4484
- Processing state
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Summary
"What we're actually building is an unstoppable messenger." Jeff G & Gigi take a walk in Oslo. Listen on sovereignengineering.io In this dialogue: Jeff G explains how White Noise started as an attempt to build the most private messenger possible, then slowly mutated into something else: an unstoppable messenger that can survive ugly network conditions and hostile environments Why MLS on Nostr is mostly an ordering problem: identity and delivery are the easy parts, group-state evolution is where everything breaks Forked histories, missing commits, and the nightmare scenario where a group silently splits into incompatible realities without anybody noticing The temptation of coordinators, sequencers, and Pablo's hilariously named Serial Killer Relay , plus the deeper question of when a relay stops being a relay and quietly becomes a server Calle's Cashu headaches, NIP-60 and NIP-61 edge cases, and the "pocket with a hole" problem where balances seem to disappear, reappear, and generally behave like loose change under a couch Jeff G's current bet for Marmot : a deterministic state machine, tunable convergence rules, and automatic re-init flows that make occasional desync tolerable Why large-group privacy degrades fast, and why "perfect privacy" stops meaning much once a chat has hundreds or thousands of people in it Why Pika felt more reliable than NIP-17 for one-to-one chats, and where simple tools still beat more ambitious systems The White Noise v2 direction: replaceable key packages, smaller app components, and decoupling Nostr identity from the transport layer so relays become just one option among many How FIPS pushed the design forward by making transport agility feel real: relays, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth Direct, and whatever else can move packets when the normal inter…