# INTERVIEW | Make Money by Becoming an Octopus Organization with Dr. Yana Werner & Phil LeBrun

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Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/travis-makes-money-6588893/interview-make-money-by-becoming-an-octopus-organization-with-dr-yana-werner-phil-lebrun.md
Podcast: [Travis Makes Money](https://stenobird.com/podcast/travis-makes-money-6588893)
Published: 2026-05-27T08:15:00+00:00
Episode link: https://prefix.up.audio/s/pdrl.fm/d318d2/mgln.ai/e/211/traffic.megaphone.fm/TNM2811998539.mp3
Audio file: https://prefix.up.audio/s/pdrl.fm/d318d2/mgln.ai/e/211/traffic.megaphone.fm/TNM2811998539.mp3
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Duration seconds: 1632

## Resource

Dr. Yana Werner and Phil LeBrun are senior leaders at Amazon Web Services who help Fortune 500 companies navigate AI innovation, organizational change, and leadership transformation. Yana is an Executive in Residence at AWS, a Harvard Business Review Press author, and a global transformation leader with experience spanning financial services, startups, and DHL. Phil is the former international CIO of McDonald's, where he led technology modernization across 38,000 restaurants in 120 countries. Together, they co-authored The Octopus Organization, a book focused on helping organizations embrace decentralized leadership, AI adoption, and human-centered change. On this episode we talk about: Why most corporate transformations fail — and how to avoid “soul-destroying” change initiatives The rapid acceleration of AI and why companies are struggling to keep up How Amazon approaches AI innovation internally and encourages experimentation at scale The meaning behind “The Octopus Organization” and decentralized intelligence Why curiosity is one of the most valuable career skills in the modern economy Phil’s journey from flipping burgers at McDonald’s to becoming international CIO Yana’s philosophy of saying “yes” to opportunities and connecting the dots later Why leadership isn’t tied to a title — and how anyone can become a leader The importance of learning over certainty in today’s workplace How AI tools are reshaping organizational structures and decision making Why transformation projects fail 70–90% of the time Advice for young professionals navigating today’s corporate and AI-driven landscape How experimentation and autonomy create innovation inside large organizations The role of curiosity, lifelong learning, and ownership in career growth Why successful leaders ask better…

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