# Order vs. Chaos – Who is thriving in a world of crisis?

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/this-is-not-a-drill-with-gavin-esler-4458337/order-vs-chaos-who-is-thriving-in-a-world-of-crisis
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/this-is-not-a-drill-with-gavin-esler-4458337/order-vs-chaos-who-is-thriving-in-a-world-of-crisis.md
Podcast: [This Is Not A Drill with Gavin Esler](https://stenobird.com/podcast/this-is-not-a-drill-with-gavin-esler-4458337)
Published: 2026-05-28T03:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.megaphone.fm/NSR9497191231.mp3
Audio file: https://pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.megaphone.fm/NSR9497191231.mp3
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Duration seconds: 2117

## Resource

In a new book, Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail, co-founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations Mark Leonard argues that we have entered an age of ‘un-order’ – when the rules and norms of the international order no longer hold sway. Can democratic leaders find a way to meet the challenges of an era of widening conflict, geopolitical competition and political division? In today’s episode, Mark joins Gavin Esler to discuss a new age of instability, and asks who is best prepared to survive chaos, and how? Buy Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail through our affiliate bookshop and you’ll help fund the podcast by earning us a small commission for every sale. Bookshop.org’s fees help support independent bookshops too. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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## Transcript

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