# 473: Will Swaim—Don't Follow California

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-way-i-heard-it-with-mike-rowe-558009/473-will-swaim-don-t-follow-california
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-way-i-heard-it-with-mike-rowe-558009/473-will-swaim-don-t-follow-california.md
Podcast: [The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe](https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-way-i-heard-it-with-mike-rowe-558009)
Published: 2026-03-03T11:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://thewayiheardit.rsvmedia.com/473-will-swaimdont-follow-california
Audio file: https://claritaspod.com/measure/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/1124/prfx.byspotify.com/e/arttrk.com/p/MRWRK/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.libsyn.com/secure/thewayiheardit/473_Will_Swaim.mp3?dest-id=323283
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/the-way-i-heard-it-with-mike-rowe-558009/episodes/473-will-swaim-don-t-follow-california
Duration seconds: 3957

## Resource

Mike talks with Will Swaim , CEO of the California Policy Center . California has long marketed itself as the future—a place where trends are born and the rest of the country eventually follows. But Swaim argues that when it comes to public policy, that's the last thing America should do. Despite spending roughly $24 billion, California still leads the nation in homelessness. The state ranks near the bottom in education outcomes, while residents face the highest energy and gas prices as well as marginal income tax rates in America. Swaim argues these aren't accidents—they're the predictable results of bad policy choices.

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## Transcript

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