# S9 E8: Rigor Redefined (Unpacking the Myths of Hard Work and Hierarchy)

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-school-leadership-show-1097468/s9-e8-rigor-redefined-unpacking-the-myths-of-hard-work-and-hierarchy
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-school-leadership-show-1097468/s9-e8-rigor-redefined-unpacking-the-myths-of-hard-work-and-hierarchy.md
Podcast: [The School Leadership Show](https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-school-leadership-show-1097468)
Published: 2025-06-10T21:14:00+00:00
Episode link: https://schoolleadershipshow.com/133-s9-e8-rigor-redefined-unpacking-the-myths-of-hard-work-and-hierarchy
Audio file: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/theschoolleadershipshow/133_S9_E8_Rigor_Redefined_Unpacking_the_Myths_of_Hard_Work_and_Hierarchy.mp3?dest-id=272893
Processing state: not_requested
JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/the-school-leadership-show-1097468/episodes/s9-e8-rigor-redefined-unpacking-the-myths-of-hard-work-and-hierarchy
Duration seconds: 2640

## Resource

In this episode, Jenn David-Lang took the reins and had a fascinating conversation with Michael McDowell, author of Rigor Redefined: 10 Teaching Habits for Surface, Deep, and Transfer Learning. Listen to the podcast to hear how Michael challenges our traditional understanding of rigor. Apparently, rigor isn't just about things being "hard" or doing a lot of work quickly. Instead, it's defined as a balance between surface, deep, and transfer learning, and importantly, it's a taxonomy, not a hierarchy. This means you don't have to master knowing facts (surface) before you can relate ideas (deep) or apply learning to new situations (transfer). Jenn and Michael also discussed how this balanced approach can and should be accessible to all students, not just those in advanced classes. A key takeaway seems to be that embedding rigor consistently is about implementing small, doable routines in our daily practice. They even shared examples of routines for fostering deep (like a three-able turn and talk) and transfer learning (like "spot the difference" problems). I'm particularly interested in the advice on how leaders can observe for rigor, focusing on what students are actually doing and saying. Are you rethinking what rigor looks like in your classroom or school? Listen to this episode to learn more about redefining rigor and discover practical habits you can implement today! To learn more about Michael McDowell's work and services, visit his website: hingeeducation.org . If you have questions, feedback, or suggestions for future episodes—including great non-education books with lessons for school leaders—email us at Dr.mike.doughty@gmail.com. Please consider leaving a rating and review on Spotify or iTunes to support the show. Every bit helps! And if you found this episode…

## Actions

- request_transcript: `POST https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/the-school-leadership-show-1097468/episodes/s9-e8-rigor-redefined-unpacking-the-myths-of-hard-work-and-hierarchy/transcription-requests` — Idempotently request low-priority transcript generation for this episode.
- read_markdown: `GET https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-school-leadership-show-1097468/s9-e8-rigor-redefined-unpacking-the-myths-of-hard-work-and-hierarchy.md` — Read the agent-friendly Markdown representation of this episode resource.

A page view does not enqueue transcription. Agents should invoke `request_transcript` explicitly when they need this episode processed.

## Transcript

Full transcripts are not published on public pages unless there is a clear rights basis.