# DEBATE: Psychedelic Policy Is OVERHYPED? - Dr. Matt Johnson vs Kevin Sabet

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-illusion-of-consensus-6348435/debate-psychedelic-policy-is-overhyped-dr-matt-johnson-vs-kevin-sabet
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-illusion-of-consensus-6348435/debate-psychedelic-policy-is-overhyped-dr-matt-johnson-vs-kevin-sabet.md
Podcast: [The Illusion of Consensus](https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-illusion-of-consensus-6348435)
Published: 2026-05-14T21:35:00+00:00
Episode link: https://episode.flightcast.com/01KRJEY69M2RQ4GSR6AXHCKM71.mp3
Audio file: https://episode.flightcast.com/01KRJEY69M2RQ4GSR6AXHCKM71.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/the-illusion-of-consensus-6348435/episodes/debate-psychedelic-policy-is-overhyped-dr-matt-johnson-vs-kevin-sabet
Duration seconds: 3151

## Resource

Kevin Sabet debates Matt Johnson on the Illusion of Consensus podcast with host Rav Arora, covering Trump’s psychedelic executive order, ibogaine, FDA approval, Right to Try, drug scheduling, and the future of psychedelic research. Sabet, a former White House drug policy advisor across the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations, argues for caution around psychedelics, marijuana policy, commercial incentives, and overstated medical claims. Johnson, a leading Johns Hopkins psychedelic researcher, responds on psilocybin studies, addiction treatment, depression, safety protocols, REMS, and why accelerated research may still follow the evidence. The discussion also covers Joe Rogan, RFK Jr., Marty Makary, Jay Bhattacharya, ketamine clinics, MDMA, MAPS, cannabis rescheduling, veteran suicide, and the risks of turning experimental drugs into public policy too quickly. Subscribe to Rav’s Substack to get episodes straight to your inbox: https://www.illusionconsensus.com Chapters: 0:00 - Intro 2:05 - Sabet’s Objection to Psychedelics 10:00 - Matt’s Disagreement with Sabet 13:15 - Psychedelic Research Quality 21:10 - Kevin’s Rebuttal 24:00 - Was Joe Rogan Wrong On Ibogaine’s Efficacy 32:50 - Ibogaine Safety Concerns 40:50 - Could The Executive Order Go Too Far 46:10 - Rescheduling and FDA Approval

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## Transcript

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