# Taking Love Seriously: What Ancient Wisdom & Modern Psychology Say About Interconnectedness with John Churchill

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-great-simplification-with-nate-hagens-6364729/taking-love-seriously-what-ancient-wisdom-modern-psychology-say-about-interconnectedness-with-john-churchill
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-great-simplification-with-nate-hagens-6364729/taking-love-seriously-what-ancient-wisdom-modern-psychology-say-about-interconnectedness-with-john-churchill.md
Podcast: [The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens](https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-great-simplification-with-nate-hagens-6364729)
Published: 2026-07-22T11:30:00+00:00
Episode link: https://thegreatsimplification.libsyn.com/taking-love-seriously-what-ancient-wisdom-modern-psychology-say-about-interconnectedness-with-john-churchill
Audio file: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/thegreatsimplification/TGS228_JohnChurchill.mp3?dest-id=3235040
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Duration seconds: 5689

## Resource

A growing chorus of psychologists, contemplatives, and systems thinkers argue that most of us, and most of our institutions, are running an outdated psychological and spiritual "operating system," one never built for the converging ecological, economic, and cultural crises we face. Technological and policy responses absorb nearly all of our attention and resources, yet the maturity of the humans making the decisions may be the most needed and least prioritized intervention of all. Could ancient contemplative traditions, paired with modern psychology, offer a map for the kind of collective growing up this moment demands? In this episode, Nate welcomes Dr. John Churchill, a psychologist and former Buddhist monk, to explore a map of human development that runs from "first-person" perspective of the isolated self all the way to a felt, embodied sense of interdependence with the planet itself. Drawing on decades spent synthesizing Tibetan Buddhist contemplative science with Western developmental psychology, John walks Nate through why our centers of power remain frozen at the level of third-person individualism. John also explains why "love wisdom" (the integration of heart and mind) may be the missing ingredient in how we respond to our more-than-human predicament. Along the way, Nate presses him on whether this maturation applies to individuals, cultures, or our entire species, and on how a 2,000-year detour through empire and the carbon pulse pushed these traditions to the margins. The conversation ranges from the lost sacred academies of Alexandria to a simple attention practice anyone can do, and it keeps circling back to a single throughline: that beauty, truth, and goodness are load-bearing structures for whatever comes next. What do beauty, truth, and goodness have…

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## Transcript

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