# How to Navigate the Shifting International Order

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-foreign-affairs-interview-5444628/how-to-navigate-the-shifting-international-order
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-foreign-affairs-interview-5444628/how-to-navigate-the-shifting-international-order.md
Podcast: [The Foreign Affairs Interview](https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-foreign-affairs-interview-5444628)
Published: 2026-02-05T11:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://foreignaffairsmagazine.podbean.com/e/how-to-navigate-the-shifting-international-order/
Audio file: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/gbstn6z99cbr4xpk/260205_Alex_Sutbb_v37cvmo.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/the-foreign-affairs-interview-5444628/episodes/how-to-navigate-the-shifting-international-order
Duration seconds: 3478

## Resource

Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney may have made headlines when he described a “rupture” in global order in a speech at Davos last month. But long before that, policymakers and analysts had already been grappling with this unsettled—and unsettling—era in global politics. And the challenge has of course been especially great for American allies facing a very different Washington. President Alexander Stubb of Finland has become central both to navigating and to understanding this time of rupture. He has emerged as a leader who is particularly adept at managing the rift in the U.S.-European relationship, and at talking to Donald Trump, whether about Greenland or about golf. Yet even as he’s scrambled seemingly every week to avert a transatlantic crisis, Stubb has also gone out of his way to stress the long-term stakes of this moment—as he did in a recent Foreign Affairs essay. He warns that without significant changes, “the multilateral system as it exists will crumble,” and that “the alternatives are much worse: spheres of influence, chaos, and disorder.” Dan Kurtz-Phelan spoke to Stubb on Tuesday, February 3 about geopolitical challenges from China and Russia to Ukraine and, of course, Greenland; about Trump and the future of alliances; and about what a true breakdown in global order would mean in the years ahead. You can find sources, transcripts, and more episodes of The Foreign Affairs Interview at https://www.foreignaffairs.com/podcasts/foreign-affairs-interview.

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## Transcript

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