# Are Europe and the United States Finally Heading For Divorce?

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Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-foreign-affairs-interview-5444628/are-europe-and-the-united-states-finally-heading-for-divorce.md
Podcast: [The Foreign Affairs Interview](https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-foreign-affairs-interview-5444628)
Published: 2026-03-26T10:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://foreignaffairsmagazine.podbean.com/e/are-europe-and-the-united-states-finally-heading-for-divorce/
Audio file: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/chvy2rrb4pphic9p/260326_FAI_Matthias_Matthijs_Nathalie_Tocci_v3959fr.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/the-foreign-affairs-interview-5444628/episodes/are-europe-and-the-united-states-finally-heading-for-divorce
Duration seconds: 3918

## Resource

Just a few weeks after its opening salvos, the war in Iran is already going global. Iran has effectively closed the Strait of Hormuz, stranding oil tankers and causing energy prices to skyrocket. Donald Trump has asked European partners to help restore freedom of navigation. So far, they have largely rebuffed his requests for military assistance. But as the economic pain mounts, their resolve will surely be tested. Europe’s difficult position is indicative of a dilemma the continent’s leaders have faced since Trump’s return: whether to marshal their resources and will to push back against Trump’s coercion, or to give in to it. In 2025, according to the political scientists Nathalie Tocci and Matthias Matthijs, they chose wrong. “Instead of insisting on bargaining with the United States as an equal partner,” Tocci and Matthijs wrote in a recent essay in Foreign Affairs, Europe “reflexively and consistently adopted a posture of submission.” But this year, Europe seems to have begun to stand up to the United States. In January, it strongly rejected Trump’s posturing over Greenland. Now, with Washington pressuring European countries to support its war on Iran, Europe may have no choice but to assert itself. Deputy Editor Chloe Fox spoke with Tocci and Matthijs on Tuesday, March 24, about the choices facing Europe in the age of Trump. You can find sources, transcripts, and more episodes of The Foreign Affairs Interview at https://www.foreignaffairs.com/podcasts/foreign-affairs-interview.

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## Transcript

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