# Episode 385- Useful Art explodes what your sense of Art with a capital "A" is and can be, with John Byrne, author of "Useful Art- How Activist Artists Can Change the World"

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Podcast: [The Conversation Art Podcast](https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-conversation-art-podcast-420741)
Published: 2026-03-28T21:30:04+00:00
Episode link: https://theconversationartpodcast.libsyn.com/epis-385-useful-art-explodes-what-your-sense-of-art-with-a-capital-a-is-and-can-be-with-john-byrne-author-of-useful-art-how-activist-artists-can-change-the-world
Audio file: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/theconversationartpodcast/Episode_385-_Useful_Art_Use_Value_and_Aesthetic_Value_with-_John_Byrne.mp3?dest-id=386248
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Duration seconds: 4160

## Resource

John Byrne , author of " Useful Art- How Activist Artists Can Change the World ," and professor of Useful Art at Liverpool John Moores University's School of Art and Design, talks about: The city of Liverpool and its art community, with about 20 total galleries, and how he fits into it; where he'll be book touring the book; a key framing in the book, being in a 'neo-liberal occupation' that we live under, which has a huge impact on the culture industries and means the financialization of essentially everything; the surprising pushback there's been at conferences and other events where Useful Art is discussed, including a lot of resistance from those in the art world who may feel that their positions of power are being threatened; the complex but far too under-considered distinction between "use value" and "aesthetic value," and why it's worth considering "use value" as a legitimate part of art-making (and which can even somehow manage to incorporate some aesthetic value); how one of the things he's interested in is having a radical re-think of what aesthetics are but also what they can be; some among many Useful Art projects, including by individual artist Tania Bruguera and Indonesian collective Ruangrupa, which curated Documenta 15, and how they came to be as a group…and, in turn, what the effect of having Ruangrupa curate that Documenta, which was an adventurous choice of curation, a role that John has heard described as "the curatorial Everest." In the 2 nd half of our conversation, available to Patreon supporters of The Conversation , John Byrne talks about: how ruangrupa came to be, a very different trajectory as they didn't grow up in a culture with contemporary galleries or museums (though they did go to art schools abroad), but had a goal to make a living as a…

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