# Before Michael Ma’s Cross-Examination of a China Expert, The Bureau Warned Ottawa That Foreign Interference Witnesses Could Be Targeted

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-bureau-podcast-6621098/before-michael-ma-s-cross-examination-of-a-china-expert-the-bureau-warned-ottawa-that-foreign-interference-witnesses-could-be-targeted
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-bureau-podcast-6621098/before-michael-ma-s-cross-examination-of-a-china-expert-the-bureau-warned-ottawa-that-foreign-interference-witnesses-could-be-targeted.md
Podcast: [The Bureau Podcast](https://stenobird.com/podcast/the-bureau-podcast-6621098)
Published: 2026-04-08T13:00:10+00:00
Episode link: https://www.thebureau.news/p/before-michael-mas-cross-examination
Audio file: https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/193565588/f89bcd90ab523825611921f72885d51f.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/the-bureau-podcast-6621098/episodes/before-michael-ma-s-cross-examination-of-a-china-expert-the-bureau-warned-ottawa-that-foreign-interference-witnesses-could-be-targeted
Duration seconds: 3909

## Resource

OTTAWA — In this discussion with Jason James, I break down the stunning rise of Liberal floor-crosser Michael Ma — a story The Bureau has led Canadian media on with at least 10 investigative reports since mid-December 2025, culminating in our coverage of his suspicious cross-examination of expert Margaret McCuaig-Johnston. This is a wide-ranging conversation. I explain the earlier rise of Markham-area Liberal figure Mary Ng, who was selected to run in a by-election after Liberal heavyweight John McCallum left Parliament to become ambassador to China. Ng had quickly risen from an Ontario Liberal government staffer, to a powerful member of Justin Trudeau’s office, to a new member of Parliament in a safe Liberal riding heavily influenced by Chinese diaspora pressure groups, and ultimately to cabinet as trade minister. I tell Jason that Michael Ma’s trajectory — from elected Conservative, to floor-crosser helping give Mark Carney a near-majority, to joining Carney’s inner circle, to appearing to echo Beijing talking points denying Uyghur forced labour — could follow a similarly strategic path that raises questions about possible community pressure group chess moves. None of this has been proven. But I explain why I believe there are mounting signs that deserve serious scrutiny. I also tell Jason that what happened to Margaret McCuaig-Johnston struck me as similar to some of my own experiences in committee hearings. In the interview, I disclose that after a recent request to appear before committee, regarding implementation of the proposed foreign interference registry, I sent a formal letter expressing concern that some questioning directed at witnesses on foreign interference could be inappropriate or reputationally damaging. Because I discuss that letter centrally in the…

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