# Emptiness is not nothingness. Jul 14, 1986

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/talks-by-zen-roshi-lola-mcdowell-lee-6423598/emptiness-is-not-nothingness-jul-14-1986
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/talks-by-zen-roshi-lola-mcdowell-lee-6423598/emptiness-is-not-nothingness-jul-14-1986.md
Podcast: [Talks by Zen Roshi, Lola McDowell Lee](https://stenobird.com/podcast/talks-by-zen-roshi-lola-mcdowell-lee-6423598)
Published: 2026-05-16T19:09:27+00:00
Episode link: https://rss.com/podcasts/ing-publishing/2825477
Audio file: https://content.rss.com/episodes/214545/2825477/ing-publishing/2026_05_14_18_10_33_a0d6d4a1-62b5-4d97-8af5-9809078f0308.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/talks-by-zen-roshi-lola-mcdowell-lee-6423598/episodes/emptiness-is-not-nothingness-jul-14-1986
Duration seconds: 3655

## Resource

Zen Roshi, Lola McDowell Lee, discusses the concept of the "Unborn," the central teaching of Master Bankei. Lola recounts the story of an arrogant Abbot trying to challenge Bankei. The Abbot told his congregation, “If I put a difficult question to him, I can stymie him with just one word. So saying this, he went off to see this supposed master. And here in this large crowd, in the middle of the talk, the Abbot shouted in his booming voice, “Everyone here accepts your sermon and believes it. But someone educated like myself doesn't accept. If a person doesn't accept, how are you going to save him?” And Bankei raised his fan and says, “Come forward.” So the Abbot went forward to stand before him. And then Bankei says, come a little closer. So the abbot shuffled forward again. And Bankei looks at him and says, “See how well you accept what I say?” Indian patriarch Nagarjuna’s doctrine of Shunyata , or emptiness. This emptiness is not a nihilistic nothingness or an absence, but rather an absolute state where relativity disappears. The Prajñāpāramitā represents a noetic leap across the abyss of contradiction. To explain, Lola uses the metaphor of passing through a chain-link fence into a garden that the mind could never have previously imagined. One should not waste time speculating about what is on the other side, as the mental process is inherently dualistic and incapable of grasping the Absolute. Lola discusses the human condition through the lens of the Five Aggregates. Everything in the phenomenal world—cells, organs, and thoughts —is a temporary aggregation of elements. By examining the body, one realizes there is no permanent, self-existing entity to be found. This leads to the practice of the via negativa , or the path of negation. Through non-attachment and non-jud…

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