# Success Is When the Team Gets Closer to the User | Alf Dobbert-Baums

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/scrum-master-toolbox-podcast-agile-storytelling-from-the-trenches-445588/success-is-when-the-team-gets-closer-to-the-user-alf-dobbert-baums
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/scrum-master-toolbox-podcast-agile-storytelling-from-the-trenches-445588/success-is-when-the-team-gets-closer-to-the-user-alf-dobbert-baums.md
Podcast: [Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches](https://stenobird.com/podcast/scrum-master-toolbox-podcast-agile-storytelling-from-the-trenches-445588)
Published: 2026-07-23T10:05:00+00:00
Episode link: https://scrummastertoolbox.libsyn.com/success-is-when-the-team-gets-closer-to-the-user-alf-dobbert-baums
Audio file: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/scrummastertoolbox/20260723_Alf_Dobbert-Baums_Thu.mp3?dest-id=246429
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/scrum-master-toolbox-podcast-agile-storytelling-from-the-trenches-445588/episodes/success-is-when-the-team-gets-closer-to-the-user-alf-dobbert-baums
Duration seconds: 837

## Resource

Alf Dobbert-Baums: Success Is When the Team Gets Closer to the User Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes . "Getting closer to the user — it's always very good to get the feedback from the user." - Alf Dobbert-Baums For Alf, success as a Scrum Master is measurable in proximity: how close did you get the team to the actual user? He tells a small story that makes the point bigger than it sounds. In a sprint review, a user mentioned an annoying detail — clicking an item in a long list opened a popup, and when you closed the popup, the focus jumped back to the top of the list. Four hours later, the team had fixed it. A small JavaScript change saved a whole customer-center team from scrolling back to find their place dozens of times a day. The shift Alf coaches is treating the review as a working meeting , not a demo. Users don't clap and leave — they discover. They surface the thing the PO doesn't see, because the PO has perspective and the user has the actual workflow (often with three other apps open at the same time). Alf credits a usability test he once ran for opening his eyes: "Why are you clicking there? Nope, she wouldn't click on there." When the developer sees a real person use the software, the product changes. The guessing stops. In this segment, we refer to Shift: From Product to People by Michael Dougherty and Pete Oliver-Kruger and their Usability Theater technique — getting users to use the product while the team watches, the way you'd watch a play. Self-reflection Question: When did your team last watch a real user use the product — and if it's been a while, what's stopping you from inviting one to your next review?…

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## Transcript

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