# BONUS Why Your Organization Is Still a Factory — And What an Octopus Can Teach You About Transformation With Phil Le-Brun and Dr. Jana Werner

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/scrum-master-toolbox-podcast-agile-storytelling-from-the-trenches-445588/bonus-why-your-organization-is-still-a-factory-and-what-an-octopus-can-teach-you-about-transformation-with-phil-le-brun-and-dr-jana-werner
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/scrum-master-toolbox-podcast-agile-storytelling-from-the-trenches-445588/bonus-why-your-organization-is-still-a-factory-and-what-an-octopus-can-teach-you-about-transformation-with-phil-le-brun-and-dr-jana-werner.md
Podcast: [Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches](https://stenobird.com/podcast/scrum-master-toolbox-podcast-agile-storytelling-from-the-trenches-445588)
Published: 2026-06-12T10:05:00+00:00
Episode link: https://scrummastertoolbox.libsyn.com/bonus-why-your-organization-is-still-a-factory-and-what-an-octopus-can-teach-you-about-transformation-with-phil-le-brun-and-dr-jana-werner
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Duration seconds: 1842

## Resource

BONUS: Why Your Organization Is Still a Factory — And What an Octopus Can Teach You About Transformation Phil Le-Brun and Dr. Jana Werner both work inside Amazon, advising Fortune 500 leaders on transformation. But before Amazon, they spent decades in the trenches — Phil as International CIO of McDonald's, Jana leading change in banking and logistics. Together they wrote The Octopus Organization (HBR Press) to explain why most companies are still running on a hundred-year-old factory model, and what the alternative looks like. "We Want to Help You Make Your Own New Interesting Mistakes" "We keep saying, as Phil likes to say, can we help you make your own new interesting mistakes and avoid the mistakes that we see again and again." Jana and Phil are both practitioners who have led large-scale changes — and made mistakes they're now happy to share. Jana describes working with incredible, smart, thoughtful people inside large organizations who weren't trusted, weren't allowed to do the work they could do, and couldn't be their best selves. She managed to turn teams considered underperforming into rock stars simply by listening and giving them space. Phil saw the same pattern at McDonald's — incredible people who knew the answers but weren't allowed to act on them. A disastrous standardization push from 2002 to 2004 taught him that top-down efficiency mandates don't work. The CEO left, and Phil got the opportunity to tap into people lower in the organization, define a common mission, and start building from there. The Factory Model Nobody Questions "There was no upside for her people taking ownership because you could have career-limiting effects if you made a mistake, if you were seen to be making a mistake or overstepping." Jana shared two sides of the same problem. A CE…

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