# CPO Rising Series: SignalWire EVP of Product on Why the Business Model Is the Product

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/product-talk-216178/cpo-rising-series-signalwire-evp-of-product-on-why-the-business-model-is-the-product
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/product-talk-216178/cpo-rising-series-signalwire-evp-of-product-on-why-the-business-model-is-the-product.md
Podcast: [Product Talk](https://stenobird.com/podcast/product-talk-216178)
Published: 2026-07-13T12:14:00+00:00
Episode link: https://productsthatcount.libsyn.com/cpo-rising-series-signalwire-evp-of-product-on-why-the-business-model-is-the-product
Audio file: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/productsthatcount/Adam_Kalsey_Podcast_Audio_Version.mp3?dest-id=302280
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/product-talk-216178/episodes/cpo-rising-series-signalwire-evp-of-product-on-why-the-business-model-is-the-product
Duration seconds: 2171

## Resource

What if the PM-to-engineer ratio flipped and there were two product managers for every engineer? In this episode of the CPO Rising series hosted by Products That Count Resident CPO Renee Niemi, SignalWire EVP of Product Adam Kalsey will be speaking on why the bottleneck in software has shifted from building to knowing what to build, and why the business model is just as much a part of the product as the technology. He also shares how he built an autonomous product ops intern using Claude and OpenClaw and spent almost $50 an hour on tokens in the process.

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## Transcript

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