# After Order? w/ Juliano Fiori

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/politics-theory-other-887376/after-order-w-juliano-fiori
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/politics-theory-other-887376/after-order-w-juliano-fiori.md
Podcast: [Politics Theory Other](https://stenobird.com/podcast/politics-theory-other-887376)
Published: 2026-07-18T09:57:51+00:00
Episode link: https://soundcloud.com/poltheoryother/afterorder
Audio file: https://feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/2363361251-poltheoryother-afterorder.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/politics-theory-other-887376/episodes/after-order-w-juliano-fiori
Duration seconds: 4617

## Resource

From rising geopolitical tensions, to the worsening climate situation, and from the Gaza genocide to hot wars that threaten to spill into great power conflict, the world of the 2020s is one of concatenating crises. But is our moment an interregnum that will be followed by a new moment of relatively ordered hegemony? Juliano Fiori, director of the Alameda Institute, argues otherwise and makes the case that we have entered a post-order situation in which crisis is the new normal. In our conversation today, we talked about why Juliano believes the creation of a relatively stable new international order is unlikely and why China will probably not be able to assume a position of international leadership on the scale needed to create such an order. We also talked about Gramsci's concept of the Interregnum, and how disordering at the international level is mirrored and mutually constituted by the disordering of national polities and the world of work. And we also talked about the extent to which the pre-Donald Trump era really was a rules-based system given the extreme violence that the United States and its allies have been the authors of since WWII.

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## Transcript

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