# Martin Fowler & Kent Beck: Frameworks for reinventing software, again and again

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Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/podqueue-6583043/martin-fowler-kent-beck-frameworks-for-reinventing-software-again-and-again.md
Podcast: [PodQueue](https://stenobird.com/podcast/podqueue-6583043)
Published: 2026-04-14T14:25:27+00:00
Episode link: https://podqueue.fm/playlist_items/j1tyhai21e9qv4s83w-mk-jo
Audio file: https://podqueue.fm/proxy/49yBLyOzkiOHD73r2ZcVRA.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/podqueue-6583043/episodes/martin-fowler-kent-beck-frameworks-for-reinventing-software-again-and-again
Duration seconds: 1953

## Resource

With Martin Fowler and Kent Beck. At The Pragmatic Summit: www.pragmaticsummit.com. See a writeup of the talk: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/cycles-of-disruption-in-the-tech Watch the session with Q&A also included: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-pragmatic-summit-recordings 0:00 Intro 2:11 Ideas from Agile/TDD/refactoring that stuck 9:04 Historical analogies: microprocessor, internet, OO, Agile 16:44 Why good practices still fail 21:21 How the AI shift is different 25:50 Engineers as managers of multiple agents 27:11 One-pizza vs two-pizza teams 29:07 Developer experience and agent experience

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## Transcript

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