# E199: Rethinking Infra-as-Code for the AI Era

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/open-source-startup-podcast/e199-rethinking-infra-as-code-for-the-ai-era
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/open-source-startup-podcast/e199-rethinking-infra-as-code-for-the-ai-era.md
Podcast: [Open Source Startup Podcast](https://stenobird.com/podcast/open-source-startup-podcast)
Published: 2026-07-14T18:58:48+00:00
Episode link: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ossstartuppodcast/episodes/E199-Rethinking-Infra-as-Code-for-the-AI-Era-e3m35li
Audio file: https://anchor.fm/s/3eab794c/podcast/play/122836082/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-6-14%2F5d9b6839-0920-3750-5dee-ee87ae3b008c.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/open-source-startup-podcast/episodes/e199-rethinking-infra-as-code-for-the-ai-era
Duration seconds: 2547

## Resource

This Open Source Startup Podcast episode has our co-hosts Robby and Tim in conversation with Pavlo Baron from Platform Engineering Labs - creators of open source infra-as-code platform formae . This podcast explores why traditional infrastructure-as-code tools like Terraform and Pulumi can struggle with state, drift, and the disconnect between code and real-world infrastructure. Pavlo shares lessons from building Instana and explains how those experiences led to Formae, an open-source approach that treats infrastructure state as accessible, executable code using Apple’s Pkl language. The conversation also looks at what infrastructure management needs in the AI era. By reducing low-level complexity and giving both humans and AI agents safer abstractions for discovering, modifying, and reconciling infrastructure, Formae aims to make infrastructure automation more reliable and less labor-intensive.

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## Transcript

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