# "My disenchantment with Zionism was a very gradual process" w/ Avi Shlaim

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/makdisi-street-6699620/my-disenchantment-with-zionism-was-a-very-gradual-process-w-avi-shlaim
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/makdisi-street-6699620/my-disenchantment-with-zionism-was-a-very-gradual-process-w-avi-shlaim.md
Podcast: [Makdisi Street](https://stenobird.com/podcast/makdisi-street-6699620)
Published: 2026-02-01T14:56:00+00:00
Episode link: https://5c38ed5d-ae39-4593-abba-a055102e8adb.libsyn.com/my-disenchantment-with-zionism-was-a-very-gradual-process-w-avi-shlaim
Audio file: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/5c38ed5d-ae39-4593-abba-a055102e8adb/Avi_Shlaim_India_final_1.mp3?dest-id=4236263
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/makdisi-street-6699620/episodes/my-disenchantment-with-zionism-was-a-very-gradual-process-w-avi-shlaim
Duration seconds: 2844

## Resource

A special edition of the Makdisi Street podcast in which Ussama interviews fellow historian Avi Shlaim in Jaipur, India where both were attending the Jaipur Literature Festival. Ussama asks Avi about his new book Genocide in Gaza , the history of coexistence devastated by the project of colonial Zionism, and about when and why Avi became an anti-Zionist. They discuss the importance of archives, ethical history writing, the virulent anti-Palestinian racism of Benny Morris, and the significance about the refusal of the historical profession's leading bodies in the West to take a clear stand against genocide. Date of recording: January 15, 2026 Watch the video edition on our YouTube channel Follow us on our socials: X: @MakdisiStreet YouTube: @MakdisiStreet Insta: @Makdisist TikTok: @Makdisistreet Music by Hadiiiiii Sign up at Patreon.com/MakdisiStreet to access all the bonus content, including the latest Q&A

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## Transcript

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