# Ep 396 - Recession by Design: Who Pays for the Business Cycle? with John T. Harvey

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Podcast: [Macro N Cheese](https://stenobird.com/podcast/macro-n-cheese-703488)
Published: 2026-09-12T11:30:00+00:00
Episode link: https://macroncheese.captivate.fm/episode/ep-396-john-harvey
Audio file: https://episodes.captivate.fm/episode/d7e270d3-e6a7-406a-8caa-5f24edd8f1f6.mp3
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Duration seconds: 3657

## Resource

** Discuss this episode with us at Macro ‘n Chill, our virtual community gathering. Tuesday, September 15, at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/jBqKoQB6RtOjQPE8cW17ew This week we’re having a long-overdue reunion with John T. Harvey, known to our listeners as the Cowboy Economist because of his plainspoken, accessible way of explaining complex ideas. John talks with Steve about his latest book, US Business Cycles 1954–2020. The conversation challenges mainstream economic theory that treats markets as naturally self-correcting, when in fact unemployment, inequality, oligarchy, and recurring crises are outcomes generated by the system itself. The discussion brings MMT’s insights about money and real resources into direct contact with the question of class power. If the federal government can finance full employment, and a Job Guarantee could give workers a genuine alternative to precarious private employment, why don’t we do it? John and Steve agree on the central contradiction: the obstacles are not primarily economic or technical. They lie in the distribution of power and in institutions structured around the interests of capital. The challenge, then, is not simply figuring out what is economically possible, but understanding what prevents us from doing it. John T. Harvey is the Hal Wright Professor of Economics in the Department of Economics at Texas Christian University. He is a well-known heterodox scholar who has published extensively, including two books: Currencies, Crises and Capital Flows (2009) and Contending Perspectives in Economics (2020 2nd edition). His most recent book is US Business Cycles 1954–2020, published by Cambridge University Press (December 2025). He has earned numerous awards for teaching and researc…

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