# Ep 390 - China's Green Development is Both Anti-Imperialist & Socialist with Ashwin Shantha

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/macro-n-cheese-703488/ep-390-china-s-green-development-is-both-anti-imperialist-socialist-with-ashwin-shantha
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/macro-n-cheese-703488/ep-390-china-s-green-development-is-both-anti-imperialist-socialist-with-ashwin-shantha.md
Podcast: [Macro N Cheese](https://stenobird.com/podcast/macro-n-cheese-703488)
Published: 2026-08-01T11:30:00+00:00
Episode link: https://macroncheese.captivate.fm/episode/ep-390-ashwin-shantha
Audio file: https://episodes.captivate.fm/episode/91c18ce1-4a03-4a62-910e-320d41449cd1.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/macro-n-cheese-703488/episodes/ep-390-china-s-green-development-is-both-anti-imperialist-socialist-with-ashwin-shantha
Duration seconds: 4001

## Resource

** Do you want to talk about this episode with us? Come to Macro ‘n Chill, our online gathering. Tuesday, August 4, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/nLks4k8gQWKQzTAn0CEsoA Ashwin Shantha joins Steve for a discussion challenging Western narratives on China – particularly the all-too-common opinions that dismiss its socialist character. This episode makes the case that China is a genuine socialist project where the state disciplines capital rather than being governed by it. Ashwin illustrates how China's green industrial revolution—driven by rapid progress in electric vehicles and renewable energy—marks a qualitative break from capitalist development paths. Unlike the Global North's extractive model, China's centrally planned approach prioritizes use-value objectives (clean air, energy self-reliance, and technological independence) over exchange-value maximization. The state constructs markets strategically, using mechanisms like the dual-credit policy to force both domestic and foreign automakers toward sustainable production targets. While the episode isn’t focused on MMT, it highlights how China's monetary sovereignty enables fiscal space for long-term industrial planning. The nation's ability to issue its own currency and direct credit toward clean development highlights a crucial distinction from Global South countries trapped in IMF-imposed structural adjustment programs. This self-determined policy space, which is denied to nations like India and much of Africa, allows Beijing to absorb neoliberal shocks while maintaining state control over the economy. China's sustainable growth model is anti-imperialist in two key ways. First, energy independence reduces reliance on imported fossil fuels that expose the country to geopolitic…

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## Transcript

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