# Making deep learning perform real algorithms with Category Theory (Andrew Dudzik, Petar Velichkovich, Taco Cohen, Bruno Gavranović, Paul Lessard)

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk/making-deep-learning-perform-real-algorithms-with-category-theory-andrew-dudzik-petar-velichkovich-taco-cohen-bruno-gavranovi-paul-lessard
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Podcast: [Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST)](https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk)
Published: 2025-12-22T15:01:13+00:00
Episode link: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/machinelearningstreettalk/episodes/Making-deep-learning-perform-real-algorithms-with-Category-Theory-Andrew-Dudzik--Petar-Velichkovich--Taco-Cohen--Bruno-Gavranovi--Paul-Lessard-e3cmhua
Audio file: https://anchor.fm/s/1e4a0eac/podcast/play/112985482/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-11-22%2F414834607-44100-2-d15a91341d3b9.mp3
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Duration seconds: 2637

## Resource

Modern LLMs struggle with basic algorithmic tasks like addition because they rely on pattern recognition rather than internal computational logic. This discussion explores using Category Theory to move deep learning from empirical 'alchemy' to a principled engineering discipline.

## Highlights
- Main idea: LLMs lack the internal machinery for operations like carrying digits, making them prone to failure on simple arithmetic
- Failure mode: Relying on tool-use or chain-of-thought acts as a patch rather than fixing the underlying architectural inability to process algorithms
- Practical takeaway: Moving from 'Analytic' to 'Synthetic' mathematics can help models internalize rules rather than just observing data
- Main idea: Category Theory offers a 'Periodic Table' for neural networks, allowing for the composition of complex operations from simpler ones
- Technical vision: The goal is to build neural networks that can execute computation in a way that is mathematically reasonble and robust

## Topics

Category Theory, Deep Learning, Large Language Models, Geometric Deep Learning, Algorithmic Reasoning, Neural Network Architecture, Mathematical Logic, Computational Complexity

## Chapters
- 1:00 — The Failure of LLM Addition: Why language models fail at basic arithmetic despite appearing competent through pattern recognition.
- 4:35 — Broadening Geometric Deep Learning: The need to expand the lens of geometric deep learning to include more complex algorithmic structures.
- 7:35 — Invariance and Preconditions: Discussing the challenges of maintaining computational invariants when pushing data through functions.
- 10:40 — Compositionality and Color Violations: Using the analogy of 'colors' to explain how types must match for successful algebraic composition.
- 14:00 — Moving Beyond Deep Learning Alchemy: The transition from ad hoc architectural design choices to a principled, theory-driven foundation.
- 17:35 — Aligning Models to Algorithms: The difficulty of aligning neural architectures with classical algorithmic computation and permutation invariance.
- 21:00 — The Complexity of Multiplication: Why scaling inputs makes the translation between embeddings and algorithms increasingly prone to failure.
- 24:20 — Synthetic Mathematics: A shift toward a mathematical framework where principles are abstracted rather than just observed.

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## Transcript

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