# Large Language Models and Emergence: A Complex Systems Perspective (Prof. David C. Krakauer) Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk/large-language-models-and-emergence-a-complex-systems-perspective-prof-david-c-krakauer Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk/large-language-models-and-emergence-a-complex-systems-perspective-prof-david-c-krakauer.md Podcast: [Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST)](https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk) Published: 2025-07-31T18:43:41+00:00 Episode link: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/machinelearningstreettalk/episodes/Large-Language-Models-and-Emergence-A-Complex-Systems-Perspective-Prof--David-C--Krakauer-e369pb7 Audio file: https://traffic.megaphone.fm/APO2962678850.mp3 Processing state: processed JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/machine-learning-street-talk/episodes/large-language-models-and-emergence-a-complex-systems-perspective-prof-david-c-krakauer Duration seconds: 2988 ## Resource Prof. David Krakauer, President of the Santa Fe Institute argues that we are fundamentally confusing knowledge with intelligence, especially when it comes to AI. He defines true intelligence as the ability to do more with less—to solve novel problems with limited information. This is contrasted with current AI models, which he describes as doing less with more; they require astounding amounts of data to perform tasks that don't necessarily demonstrate true understanding or adaptation. He humorously calls this "really shit programming". David challenges the popular notion of "emergence" in Large Language Models (LLMs). He explains that the tech community's definition—seeing a sudden jump in a model's ability to perform a task like three-digit math—is superficial. True emergence, from a complex systems perspective, involves a fundamental change in the system's internal organization, allowing for a new, simpler, and more powerful level of description. He gives the example of moving from tracking individual water molecules to using the elegant laws of fluid dynamics. For LLMs to be truly emergent, we'd need to see them develop new, efficient internal representations, not just get better at memorizing patterns as they scale. Drawing on his background in evolutionary theory, David explains that systems like brains, and later, culture, evolved to process information that changes too quickly for genetic evolution to keep up. He calls culture "evolution at light speed" because it allows us to store our accumulated knowledge externally (in books, tools, etc.) and build upon it without corrupting the original. This leads to his concept of "exbodiment," where we outsource our cognitive load to the world through things like maps, abacuses, or… ## Actions - request_transcript: `POST https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/machine-learning-street-talk/episodes/large-language-models-and-emergence-a-complex-systems-perspective-prof-david-c-krakauer/transcription-requests` — Idempotently request low-priority transcript generation for this episode. - read_markdown: `GET https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk/large-language-models-and-emergence-a-complex-systems-perspective-prof-david-c-krakauer.md` — Read the agent-friendly Markdown representation of this episode resource. A page view does not enqueue transcription. Agents should invoke `request_transcript` explicitly when they need this episode processed. ## Transcript Full transcripts are not published on public pages unless there is a clear rights basis.