# Designing How AI Grows — Tom McGrath

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk/designing-how-ai-grows-tom-mcgrath
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk/designing-how-ai-grows-tom-mcgrath.md
Podcast: [Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST)](https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk)
Published: 2026-09-02T21:04:58+00:00
Episode link: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/machinelearningstreettalk/episodes/Designing-How-AI-Grows--Tom-McGrath-e3o8p04
Audio file: https://anchor.fm/s/1e4a0eac/podcast/play/125116868/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-8-2%2F431065420-44100-2-1fb5f17ee7e73.mp3
Processing state: not_requested
JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/machine-learning-street-talk/episodes/designing-how-ai-grows-tom-mcgrath
Duration seconds: 6014

## Resource

Tom McGrath is co-founder and Chief Scientist at Goodfire, and a former Google DeepMind researcher. He joins Tim Scarfe to ask what neural networks actually learn, whether their internal representations converge on structures in the world, and whether interpretability can extract new scientific knowledge rather than merely explain model outputs. Beginning with AlphaZero and learned modularity, the conversation moves into neural geometry: concept manifolds, reusable computation inside Llama, and why activation steering can fail when it pushes a model off-manifold. McGrath then makes the case for intentional design, using interpretability as part of the training loop. They examine controlled generalisation, features as rewards, predictive data debugging, and the uncomfortable fact that a model may recognise a hallucination or reward hack and still produce it. The discussion closes on grader awareness, oversight and collusion between adaptive agents, then returns to sparse autoencoders. SAEs are useful, McGrath argues, but they may fracture the higher-dimensional structures networks actually use. This episode was made with support from Goodfire. --- TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction: Can interpretability speed-run science? 00:02:03 The invisible grader 00:06:51 What AlphaZero learned from the world 00:12:24 Interpretability as a control loop 00:21:54 The forbidden method and safer interventions 00:37:36 Why models catch hallucinations too late 00:46:19 Debug the dataset before training 00:50:44 Why neural networks become modular 00:55:57 Finding the geometry inside a network 01:02:55 Why steering falls off the manifold 01:12:10 A reusable calculator inside Llama 01:17:19 From abstractions to goals 01:25:28 Reward hacking, oversight and collusion 01:37:23 Are sparse autoen…

## Actions

- request_transcript: `POST https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/machine-learning-street-talk/episodes/designing-how-ai-grows-tom-mcgrath/transcription-requests` — Idempotently request low-priority transcript generation for this episode.
- read_markdown: `GET https://stenobird.com/podcast/machine-learning-street-talk/designing-how-ai-grows-tom-mcgrath.md` — Read the agent-friendly Markdown representation of this episode resource.

A page view does not enqueue transcription. Agents should invoke `request_transcript` explicitly when they need this episode processed.

## Transcript

Full transcripts are not published on public pages unless there is a clear rights basis.