# Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/long-strange-trip-ceo-to-ceo-with-brian-halligan-7578456/notion-s-ivan-zhao-the-refounder
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/long-strange-trip-ceo-to-ceo-with-brian-halligan-7578456/notion-s-ivan-zhao-the-refounder.md
Podcast: [Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan](https://stenobird.com/podcast/long-strange-trip-ceo-to-ceo-with-brian-halligan-7578456)
Published: 2026-05-21T09:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.megaphone.fm/CPUAI5082450475.mp3
Audio file: https://pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.megaphone.fm/CPUAI5082450475.mp3
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Duration seconds: 3786

## Resource

Ivan Zhao, founder and CEO of Notion, joins me to introduce a new contender in the founder mode debate: jazz mode. Ivan has a different take than Jack Dorsey's circular org chart or Brian Armstrong's player-coach approach. He thinks hierarchy is human nature, and that you can't flatten it away but you can build a company that improvises like a jazz band instead of marching in formation. Notion has roughly 60 ex-founders on staff and a deliberately decentralized structure to make that work. We get into why Ivan rebuilt his engineering org around a barbell — super junior ICs paired with very senior architects — which is the opposite of what most AI-pilled CEOs are doing right now. He explains why building with language models is "more like brewing beer than engineering a bridge," and how Notion's first candidate interview no longer involves a resume. Ivan is the king of refoundings. He's done it twice, once from a small apartment in Kyoto with five employees left, once from Cancun the day he got early access to GPT-4. When I was running HubSpot, I described our scale-up years as boring compared to what's happening now. Ivan's advice for any CEO who's calcified and wondering if it's time to blow it up: feel the AGI first, then trust your body when it tells you to move. 00:00 Introduction 02:22 From Founder Mode to AI Org 11:00 Hiring for Taste and Agency 24:28 Refounding Notion in Kyoto 30:27 Craft Versus Commerce 32:26 When to Refound 34:07 GPT-4 Refounding Shock 45:35 Leadership and Founder Energy 53:17 Sales Culture and Closing Thoughts

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