# Understanding Schelling's Nuclear Paradigms with Francis J. Gavin

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Podcast: [Horns of a Dilemma](https://stenobird.com/podcast/horns-of-a-dilemma-697116)
Published: 2026-04-01T19:52:00+00:00
Episode link: https://hornsofadilemma.libsyn.com/understanding-schellings-nuclear-paradigms-with-francis-j-gavin
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Duration seconds: 2928

## Resource

Francis J. Gavin, chair of the TNSR editorial board, joins us to discuss his article, "Strategic Stability and Its Limits: Reflections on Schelling." Gavin explains why Thomas Schelling remains foundational to nuclear strategy despite being an economist, and argues that "strategic stability" is often invoked without clear definition. He highlights tensions between mutual vulnerability and US extended deterrence and nonproliferation goals, and describes contradictions between Schelling's writings on arms control and coercion. Gavin critiques simplified historical lessons about surprise attack and inadvertent war shaping stability theory, traces how Cold War political constraints drove US nuclear posture, and urges policymakers to put politics and state interests first when assessing nuclear risks and emerging technologies such as AI, cyber, autonomy, and biotechnology. Hosts: Sheena Chestnut Greitens and Ryan Vest Producer: Jordan Morning

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## Transcript

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