# How to Survive a Chaotic World

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/foreign-policy-live-720323/how-to-survive-a-chaotic-world
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/foreign-policy-live-720323/how-to-survive-a-chaotic-world.md
Podcast: [Foreign Policy Live](https://stenobird.com/podcast/foreign-policy-live-720323)
Published: 2026-05-27T17:09:00+00:00
Episode link: https://mgln.ai/e/211/traffic.megaphone.fm/FGP3988714413.mp3
Audio file: https://mgln.ai/e/211/traffic.megaphone.fm/FGP3988714413.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/foreign-policy-live-720323/episodes/how-to-survive-a-chaotic-world
Duration seconds: 2473

## Resource

If the rules-based order is broken, what comes next? And who will lead it? Mark Leonard argues in his new book, Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail, that the coming system will be “un-order,” governed not by China or the United States but by no one at all. Are states responding quickly enough? Leonard, who is the director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, joins FP Live’s Ravi Agrawal to explore how policymakers should adjust. Hal Brands: Three Scenarios for a Post-Trump World Stephen M. Walt: Chinese Hegemony Might Be Happening James Palmer: China Doesn’t Always Win When the U.S. Loses Michael Hirsch: After the Nation-State Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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## Transcript

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