# Kate Bowler on the Ache That Makes Us Human—and the Joy That Makes Us Whole

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/for-the-love-with-jen-hatmaker-podcast-830534/kate-bowler-on-the-ache-that-makes-us-human-and-the-joy-that-makes-us-whole
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/for-the-love-with-jen-hatmaker-podcast-830534/kate-bowler-on-the-ache-that-makes-us-human-and-the-joy-that-makes-us-whole.md
Podcast: [For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast](https://stenobird.com/podcast/for-the-love-with-jen-hatmaker-podcast-830534)
Published: 2026-04-08T07:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/
Audio file: https://pdst.fm/e/tracking.swap.fm/track/v9Uiw3bGr54f6BVZKSyc/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.megaphone.fm/CAD8535853531.mp3?updated=1775249364
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/for-the-love-with-jen-hatmaker-podcast-830534/episodes/kate-bowler-on-the-ache-that-makes-us-human-and-the-joy-that-makes-us-whole
Duration seconds: 3713

## Resource

Description:If you’ve ever whispered, Is this it?—if you’ve been doing “all the right things” and still feel that unfinished ache humming under your skin—go ahead and hit download. Jen is joined by her beloved friend (and actual genius) Kate Bowler to talk about her new book, Joyful Anyway—a bracing, funny, tender rebellion against the optimization industrial complex. This is not a “choose joy” pep talk where somebody sprints past you tossing a Live Laugh Love pillow at your face. Kate is here for the after: after the before-and-after story didn’t pan out, after grief and guilt and longing set up permanent residence, after you realized happiness is fragile and reality keeps kicking in. Together, Jen, Amy, and Kate name what so many of us can’t quite articulate: the ache—that “achy, stabby want” at the center of our lived experience. They talk about why we need permission just to be human, why “performing resilience” is exhausting, and how telling the truth can loosen the grip of the story that’s been swallowing the rest of our life. Kate also shares an unforgettable story about a snake bite, an ER, and a moment of unexpected mercy that cracked something open—proof that joy doesn’t always come through the front door. Sometimes it slips in sideways, like grace. Like a sudden, full-bodied yes—even when nothing is resolved. You’ll also hear about: The difference between happiness (fragile and expensive) and joy (sneaky, un-schedulable, and—somehow—free) How joy finds us through embodied moments—beauty, absurdity, paying attention The Burn Book / Resentment List and why making a “this scarred me, this counted” list might be the most faithful thing you do all week (including Kate’s deeply personal grievance about her tragically unaesthetic family gravesite) Roadside Joy Deto…

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