# Natasha Piano

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/digging-a-hole-the-legal-theory-podcast-2815185/natasha-piano
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/digging-a-hole-the-legal-theory-podcast-2815185/natasha-piano.md
Podcast: [Digging a Hole: The Legal Theory Podcast](https://stenobird.com/podcast/digging-a-hole-the-legal-theory-podcast-2815185)
Published: 2025-11-10T14:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/digging-a-hole-podcast/episodes/Natasha-Piano-e3alhnq
Audio file: https://anchor.fm/s/384e5c2c/podcast/play/110855354/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-10-7%2F12fb5736-fad2-cb25-b885-ebaaecc147d1.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/digging-a-hole-the-legal-theory-podcast-2815185/episodes/natasha-piano
Duration seconds: 3912

## Resource

As one New York political dynasty comes to a close and as the government shutdown rampages on, it’s only fitting to have Natasha Piano on the pod to discuss elitism and the crisis of American democracy. Natasha Piano is an Assistant Professor of Political Theory in the Department of Political Science at UCLA. Piano joins us this week to discuss her new book, Democratic Elitism: the Founding Myth of American Political Science . In her book, Piano offers a revisionist intellectual history of three Italian (or Italian-adjacent) thinkers – Pareto, Mosca, and Michels. These three thinkers, Piano argues, have been violently misappropriated by American political scientists of the likes of Robert Dahl. Piano aims to show that Pareto, Mosca, and Michels are better understood as democratic theorists of elitism–not elitist theorists of democracy. Before Piano can officially set the record straight, she has to take on a barrage of skeptical questions from Sam and David. David asks whether American political science really misappropriated these three thinkers or rather borrowed from them for their own purposes. After an extended excursus exploring how best to interpret Pareto’s and Schumpeter’s political thought, Sam then presses Piano to explain the contemporary relevance of her three thinkers’ work. In response, Piano both makes the case for not conflating democracy with elections and warns of the plutocratic threats facing electoral democracy. We hope you enjoy! This podcast is generously supported by Themis Bar Review. Referenced Readings Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy , by Joseph Schumpeter A Preface to Democratic Theory , by Robert Dahl Who Governs? Democracy and Power in the American City , by Robert Dahl The Discourses , by Niccolò Machiavelli This episode discussed R…

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