# Are Crypto Perpetuals Futures or Swaps? Kalshi vs. John Lothian

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/coindesk-podcast-network-334494/are-crypto-perpetuals-futures-or-swaps-kalshi-vs-john-lothian
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/coindesk-podcast-network-334494/are-crypto-perpetuals-futures-or-swaps-kalshi-vs-john-lothian.md
Podcast: [CoinDesk Podcast Network](https://stenobird.com/podcast/coindesk-podcast-network-334494)
Published: 2026-06-12T14:59:00+00:00
Episode link: https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CDI8951740201.mp3
Audio file: https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CDI8951740201.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/coindesk-podcast-network-334494/episodes/are-crypto-perpetuals-futures-or-swaps-kalshi-vs-john-lothian
Duration seconds: 1559

## Resource

CoinDesk's The Policy Protocol hosts Rebecca Rettig and Renato Mariotti unpack the CFTC's 267-page proposed rule-making around prediction markets and event contracts, plus the letter from crypto CEOs backing the BRCA. And, a debate between John Lothian and Udesh Jha, Head of Exchange Analytics at Kalshi, over whether crypto perpetuals are properly classified as futures or swaps. - Read more from Ari Redbord about the mixer indictment under 1956: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ari-redbord_in-the-midst-of-debate-around-clarity-activity-7470924721635794944-8yUy?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADHl20UBUd56sB8eTJ0w5gv3WIBQo2eJ6f0 - Timecodes: 00:00 Welcome to The Policy Protocol 01:10 CFTC's 267-Page Prediction Markets Rule 03:10 60+ CEOs Back the BRCA 05:30 The Perpetuals Debate 07:43 John Lothian's Case: Do Perpetuals Look Like Swaps? 09:45 Kalshi's Udesh Jha on Funding Rates and Cost of Carry 12:43 Would Swap Status Shut Out Retail? 16:45 Is Kalshi Making the Rules Up? 19:25 John's Closing: Market Manipulation Concerns 20:46 Udesh's Closing: 'Regulation First' 23:29 Person of the Week: State Regulators 23:38 Illinois' Digital Asset Trading Tax 24:20 NY DFS Aligns With Genius

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## Transcript

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