# 279 - Marvin Oka: The Nature of Second Order Leadership

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/coaches-rising-219666/279-marvin-oka-the-nature-of-second-order-leadership
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/coaches-rising-219666/279-marvin-oka-the-nature-of-second-order-leadership.md
Podcast: [Coaches Rising](https://stenobird.com/podcast/coaches-rising-219666)
Published: 2026-03-11T15:11:56+00:00
Episode link: https://www.coachesrising.com/podcast/the-nature-of-second-order-leadership-with-marvin-oka
Audio file: https://audio2.redcircle.com/episodes/c11170d0-2a2c-46b3-bba9-5ba77bc96285/stream.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/coaches-rising-219666/episodes/279-marvin-oka-the-nature-of-second-order-leadership
Duration seconds: 7162

## Resource

In this conversation with Marvin Oka we explore neurobehavioral modelling as a lens for understanding change, leadership, and learning, examining the tension between stability and integration, the four types of change, and the cognitive capacities - such as metacognition and generative inquiry - required for second-order leadership. Moving from theory into practice, the episode explores leadership as an emergent property of systems, offering insights into whole-system change, the leadership anchorline, and how leaders and coaches can guide people from inner turbulence toward greater integration, flow, and adaptive development. For more resources, visit the podcast episode page https://www.coachesrising.com/podcast/the-nature-of-second-order-leadership-with-marvin-oka Dive deeper into transformational coaching with us… Get Free Access to our Transformational Coaching Masterclass with Staci Haines — The Body Knows the Way: An embodied approach to coaching in times of collective uncertainty and stress. Staci will show you how to unlock the wisdom of the body so you can help your clients transform reactivity into resilience — even in the face of today’s challenges. Learn more and get the recording here.

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## Transcript

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