# The Common Trap Companies Fall For | Phil Le-Brun & Jana Werner

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/behavioral-grooves-podcast-226831/the-common-trap-companies-fall-for-phil-le-brun-jana-werner
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/behavioral-grooves-podcast-226831/the-common-trap-companies-fall-for-phil-le-brun-jana-werner.md
Podcast: [Behavioral Grooves Podcast](https://stenobird.com/podcast/behavioral-grooves-podcast-226831)
Published: 2026-06-15T06:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://behavioralgrooves.podbean.com/e/the-common-trap-companies-fall-for-phil-lebrun-jana-werner/
Audio file: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/7z8p4dxa2jnwxsmk/BG_Phil_Jana_Edited92rxb.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/behavioral-grooves-podcast-226831/episodes/the-common-trap-companies-fall-for-phil-le-brun-jana-werner
Duration seconds: 4650

## Resource

Why do smart organizations become slow, bureaucratic, and resistant to change? Phil Le-Brun and Jana Werner, authors of The Octopus Organization, explore why so many companies fall into the trap of becoming “Tin Man Organizations” and what leaders can do instead. We discuss distributed decision-making, psychological safety, incentives, organizational learning, and why adaptability, not control, is often the key to long-term success. Topics [0:00] Introduction and Speed Round with Jana Werner and Phil Le-Brun [9:25] What “Bulls!t Bingo” Reveals About Corporate Language [17:18] Psychology as a Leadership Tool [25:14] Explaining Octopus Organization [32:10] Challenges of Tin Man Organizations [39:13] The Role of Psychology for Transformation [45:56] Complex vs Complicated Systems [50:50] Building an “Octopus Soundtrack” [54:13] Grooving Session: Incentives, Rewards, and Recreating Systems ©2026 Behavioral Grooves Links The Octopus Organization by Phil Le-Brun and Jana Werner About Jana About Phil Join us on Substack! Join the Behavioral Grooves community Subscribe to Behavioral Grooves on YouTube Support Behavioral Grooves Musical Links Octopus Garden - The Beatles Changes - David Bowie

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## Transcript

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