# 23. What If Refuge Was a Verb? (with Lisa Cuss)

Page: https://stenobird.com/podcast/become-new-with-john-ortberg-3584281/23-what-if-refuge-was-a-verb-with-lisa-cuss
Text version: https://stenobird.com/podcast/become-new-with-john-ortberg-3584281/23-what-if-refuge-was-a-verb-with-lisa-cuss.md
Podcast: [Become New with John Ortberg](https://stenobird.com/podcast/become-new-with-john-ortberg-3584281)
Published: 2026-06-03T07:00:00+00:00
Episode link: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2118006/episodes/19284550-23-what-if-refuge-was-a-verb-with-lisa-cuss.mp3
Audio file: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2118006/episodes/19284550-23-what-if-refuge-was-a-verb-with-lisa-cuss.mp3
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JSON: https://stenobird.com/v1/public/podcasts/become-new-with-john-ortberg-3584281/episodes/23-what-if-refuge-was-a-verb-with-lisa-cuss
Duration seconds: 846

## Resource

What if refuge was something you practiced? In this conversation, John Ortberg talks with therapist and trauma specialist Lisa Cuss about anxiety, church hurt, attachment theory, the nervous system, and Psalm 31. Lisa shares how reading the Psalms through the lens of the nervous system helped her understand David's prayers in a completely new way. His cries of fear, confusion, and desperation suddenly felt deeply human and surprisingly familiar. This episode explores: - Trauma and attachme...

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## Transcript

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